The Latest Ahmed Mukhtar “Drone Can Land But Not Take Off” Award

The Commerce and Immigration Departments who have come up with this gem:
Trucks from India to Afghanistan through Pakistan are not allowed BUT Trucks from Afghanistan to India through Pakistan are allowed

Hmmm…

BTW: Here’s what I call the “WTF? Moment of the Day”:
Updated list of 165 names put on ECL
ISLAMABAD: With the only exception of President Asif Ali Zardari, every mighty beneficiary of the now defunct National Reconciliation Ordinance (NRO) including Interior Minister Rehman Malik, Minister of State Tariq Anis, Ambassador Husain Haqqani, PPP Secretary General Jehangir Badr, Salman Faruqui and Intelligence Bureau Director Riaz Sheikh has been formally put on the Exit Control List (ECL) by the Interior Ministry, shows a notification, a copy of which is available with The News….

Zardari flies off to Dubai with Rehman Malik

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210 Responses to “The Latest Ahmed Mukhtar “Drone Can Land But Not Take Off” Award”


  1. 1 Observer December 26, 2009 at 6:30 pm

    Mind boggling statement…..Pakistanis have really screwed it BIG time since they have such “leaders”…..

    • 2 Aamir Mughal December 27, 2009 at 7:37 am

      Ayub Khan, US Spy Plane U2 Flights

      Influx [Kashf] of ICS Sufi Qudratullah Shahab and General Ayub Khan. http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/04/influx-kashf-of-ics-sufi-qudratullah.html

      • 3 nota December 27, 2009 at 12:20 pm

        Ayub Khan: “Our army can be your army if you want us. But let’s make a decision”

        Now why did this remind me of Benazir Bhutto? Didn’t she go even a lot further??

        She didn’t become a darling of the Americans because of her looks. Musharaf was scum and sold out the country. BB went just a lot further and promised much more ‘co-operation’. So what does that make her?

        And Zardari? ‘Democratically elected’?? There is no bigger fairytale….

      • 4 Aamir Mughal December 27, 2009 at 2:04 pm

        RE: Bhutto offers Khan for power Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN 27 September 2007, 03:53am IST
        ===

        Meanwhile, what surprised some was Karamat’s dismissive tone about the A Q Khan affair, which he labeled a “proliferation episode” while denying any government complicity in it. “There was no government sanction, approval, or any kind of government connection with what went on,” he said flatly. But Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan, in his 11-page confession reported in the US press in February, named Karamat, former chief of army staff General (retired) Mirza Aslam Beg and President General Pervez Musharraf as the men on top who were aware of what was going on. As the chief of army staff from 1996-98, Karamat was directly responsible for the safety and security of the nuclear program. REFERENCE: South Asia – Pakistan lays down the agenda for the US By Seema Sirohi Dec 25, 2004 http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FL25Df01.html

        The daughter, Kausar Khan, was taken to the local police station, although, contrary to usual practice, she was neither signed in nor signed out. The Dutch agents wanted to know why she had not opened the letter and whether she knew what was in it. She didn’t; she had merely been asked to look after it. Inside the envelope was a copy of a letter that Pakistan did not want to reach the West. The feared Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) had found the letter when they searched Dr AQ Khan’s home inIslamabad. He had also passed a copy on to his daughter Dina to take to her home in London, as rumours of Khan’s “proliferation” — jargon for the dissemination of nuclear secrets — swept the world. The Pakistani ISI were furious. “Now you have got your daughter involved,” they reportedly said. “So far we have left your family alone, but don’t expect any leniency now.” REFERENCE: From The Sunday Times September 20, 2009 Investigation: Nuclear scandal – Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan – The Pakistani scientist who passed nuclear secrets to the world’s rogue states has been muzzled by his government. In a smuggled letter, AQ Khan reveals his side of the story http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6839044.ece

      • 5 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 7:01 am

        Khan said Gen. Pervez Musharraf, the chief of the army staff from 1998 to 2007 and president from 2001 to 2008, and “his right-hand men” — including Kidwai, Khan asserted — “knew everything and were controlling incoming and outgoing consignments.” Kidwai heads the group that controls Pakistan’s arsenal, estimated by some U.S. government analysts at more than 100 weapons.

        But Musharraf, in his 2006 autobiography, said that Khan was responsible for all of the nuclear-related exports to North Korea and that “neither the Pakistan Army nor any of the past governments of Pakistan was ever involved or had any knowledge of A.Q.’s proliferation activities.” Pakistani scientist depicts more advanced nuclear program in North Korea – By R. Jeffrey Smith and Joby Warrick Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, December 28, 2009

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/27/AR2009122701205.html?hpid=topnews

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/27/AR2009122701205_2.html?hpid=topnews

      • 6 nota December 28, 2009 at 7:58 am

        Of course no one believes Mush. This could not have been done by Khan alone and that is what common sense dictates. Again I will repeat: What she did in 1994 while in power and what she did in 2007 while trying to beg/claw her way back to ‘relevance’ are two completely different things.

        You ought to do better than that….;-)

    • 7 Aamir Mughal December 27, 2009 at 2:17 pm

      Dear Nota,

      I hope you’ve not missed this 7 year old article of Seymour Hersh. One wonders who are the militants in FATA?? How the hell it was possible that they kept operating FM Radio under the very nose of Mush and Bush for so long and without any interruption: Read about the Secret airlift and how “US CIA” “MISSED!” OBL in air raid right after the start of the so-called War on Terror:

      The Getaway Questions surround a secret Pakistani airlift. by Seymour M. Hersh January 28, 2002

      http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/01/28/020128fa_FACT

      http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/01/28/020128faFACT?currentPage=2

      http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/01/28/020128fa_FACT?currentPage=3

      http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/01/28/020128fa_FACT?currentPage=4
      —————-
      RE: Bhutto offers Khan for power Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN 27 September 2007, 03:53am IST
      ===
      Dick Cheney & Cover-Up!

      • 8 nota December 27, 2009 at 4:52 pm

        @Aamir
        I remember it all. But this DOES NOT take away from the point I made about the sellout by BB that was going to get her back in power. (And I believe coming back and seeing her popularity, she had second thoughts — it was reneging on part of that deal was that got her killed. I can’t ‘prove’ it but that’s my reading of the events…)

  2. 9 Observer December 27, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    @nota

    I have the same feeling. After all she had limits on how far she could go for a sell out. On the other hand I can’t digest the “pooja” of her we are seing in these days. Normally I wouldn’t say anything bad about dead people, but I have to say that she was a part of the corrupt system, and according to my belief she is nowhere near a shaheed…..Zinda hathi lakh ka……

    • 10 nota December 28, 2009 at 4:56 am

      @Observer
      “After all she had limits on how far she could go for a sell out.”

      Here I would say that in fact she DID cross those limits in her deal with the Americans as she promised them the world to to allow them more access than Mushy — “I will do for you more than Mush” was her main sales pitch in front of them (she must have been listening to Haqqani) — and like I said to Aamir, “I believe coming back and seeing her popularity, she had second thoughts — it was reneging on part of that deal was that got her killed. I can’t ‘prove’ it but that’s my reading of the events”

      ‘Shaheed’ has become such an abused term that it has lost it’s meaning…actually it lost it when Zia was declared such.

      • 11 Observer December 28, 2009 at 9:26 am

        Off course….. I agree that she transgressed (a lot). What I meant is probably the same as you.

        AND how come that we can forget all her sins since they still effect negative developments in Pakistan. After all the crooks ruling in Pakistan today are her her “die hard” followers. Why she collected so much GARBAGE around her? To be worshipped?

      • 12 nota December 28, 2009 at 9:52 am

        “Why she collected so much GARBAGE around her? To be worshipped?”

        Probably. And then she went on to worship this piece of trash:

        “O’ where is my husband gone?
        His life’s prime and his grace?
        Prison Walls confine him
        Court rooms frustrate him
        Judges are frightened
        Courage has fled”
        — BB

      • 13 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 11:08 am

        Same Anjum Niaz

        Made to order media By Anjum Niaz 22-November-2008
        http://www.anjumniaz.com/Made_to_order_media.php

        The Sharifs today form an open season for media to hunt. Nethermost was their treatment of the media when in power. Saifur Rahman, trained by Nawaz Sharif was his attack dog. Rottweiler Rahman would pick up the phone and bark his threats. The measly-mouthed man meant what he said. We know of editors and reporters mauled by his intelligence agencies. That was the era of the white tinted-glass Toyota Corolla chasing you on Islamabad streets. However, lifafa journalism was thriving. Media men, who got their sons stuffed in lucrative posts like the FIA and other money-making jobs, or got fat on state largesse doled out by the Sharifs, today continue to be ace columnists and TV gurus. They are bounty hunters looking for new booty from anyone who will bite. Some of them have already wormed their way to cushy jobs in the media.

  3. 14 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 6:57 am

    @Aamir I remember it all. But this DOES NOT take away from the point I made about the sellout by BB that was going to get her back in power.
    =============

    “QUOTE”

    Khan said he negotiated the purchase of 10 Nodong missiles and related technology for $150 million after visiting North Korea in 1994 at the request of Benazir Bhutto, then Pakistan’s prime minister, and top army officials. “As a result of this deal, 10 North Korean experts came to Kahuta and were housed within the complex,” Khan said, referring to the city in northeastern Pakistan where his laboratory is situated. – Pakistani scientist depicts more advanced nuclear program in North Korea – By R. Jeffrey Smith and Joby Warrick Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, December 28, 2009

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/27/AR2009122701205.html?hpid=topnews

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/27/AR2009122701205_2.html?hpid=topnews

    “UNQUOTE”

    • 15 nota December 28, 2009 at 7:56 am

      But 1994 is NOT 2007. What she did in 1994 while in power and what she did while trying to beg/claw her way back to ‘relevance’ are two completely different things (Sometimes even a day makes a big difference: see PPP before the election and see them flip the day after)

  4. 16 Observer December 28, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    @Aamir

    You might be right about Anjum Niaz. Personally I don’t know him, but what is more interesting is your opinion on the issue of BB being a “saint”, a “saviour”, a “shaheed” etc. to be worshipped after her death. Don’t you believe that there was a suspicious number of garbage accumulated around her? I have no illusion that there cannot be a single scandal here and there in any party, but in the case of PPP it seems like that they are just not able to anything right. What have her “prominent” lieutenants achieved in two years of reign apart from more chaos? Please give your opinion.

    • 17 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 12:23 pm

      Dear Sir,

      Anjum Niaz is not him but her. Which of my statement shows that I consider Benazir, “a Saint”, “a Saviour”, or a “Shaheed”???

      For me Benazir, her father, Nawaz Sharif, even Jinnah.etc.etc. are just politicians and mortal human being and that is it. My only point is this that these journalists/analysts [I have good memory thanks to Allah] often forget what they have filed earlier therefore I try my best to not to quote these journalists on Corruption Cases [I have been government servant and was associated with the so-called Accountability Process started by Laghari, Saif and Amjad].

      These journalists/analysts [again not everone] used to play see saw in their columns/articles during the tenures of several political government. And I also know as to how they used to receive selective “clues/lead/tips” to publish “selective” truth about “selective” politicians. My only plea is that ” Treat everyone equally and across the board otherwise this will go on and on ad infinitum and ad nauseaum. Other day a Former NDFC Chief was revealing details of Loan Default by certain politicians on ARY ONE’s Bufffon Kahsif Abbasi’s talk show but I know that NDFC Chief was very “chummy” with General Mehmood and General Amjad and that NDFC cheif was himself instrumental in the ground work of forming PML-Q in connivance with NAB of not Muneer Hafeez but the so-called Mr Clean General Amjad [batchmate of Major Retd. Aftab Sherpao].

      Someday I hope you and nota have a meeting with me then I will divulge much more brazen details as to how this “Accountability” Business is conducted rather perverted in Pakistan.

      • 18 nota December 28, 2009 at 1:03 pm

        @Aamir
        The issue again was NOT Anjum Niaz (or Saifur Rahman or Nawaz or the Accountability process). Anjum was just quoting BB’s poem. Do you refute any of what I am saying? I am saying ‘X’ is black. You keep repeating ‘A’ is black, and ‘B’ is black, and ‘C’ is black. I agree but that still does not take away from ‘X’ being black and is no defense of ‘X’ — actually a confirmation of the same. Sorry but you seem to be trying to deflect, not defend.

        I think @Observer and I are pretty well aware of how perverted the accountability business is in Pakistan.

      • 19 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 1:28 pm

        No sir I am neither deflecting nor defending anyone rather raising question that when you accept someone [Zadrari] in Caretaker Cabinet [Ghulam Ishaq Khan] as a Federal Minister and that too after filing Presidential Reference regarding Corruption in 1990 and those references are quoted in the so-called Investigative Stories of some selected Journalists e.g. Karman Khan, Anjum Niaz, Shaheen Sehbai, Najam Sethi and many others then you are basically making a mockery of Accountability Process.

      • 20 nota December 28, 2009 at 1:45 pm

        “you are basically making a mockery of Accountability Process”

        Indeed (I am firm in my belief that all accountability processes — even past and present — are a mockery as they don’t go far enough. Is it not a mockery that in the current BoP scam everyone is trying to account for Rs 9 billion when 160 billion has been stolen (and we know by who)? Is it not a mockery that people are being asked to pay back only 10% of what they stole to make their theft legal?) But does that mean we should not raise a finger at Zardari, the biggest crook of them all? Now that is the height of mockery!!!!

      • 21 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 1:36 pm

        Barely 24 hours after this challenging address was delivered, President Ghulam Ishaq Khan called a press conference on the evening of 18th April 1993, to declare that the speech of the Prime Minister and other acts of his government had convinced him that the government of the federation could not be carried on in accordance with the provisions of the constitution. The President also cited “maladministration, corruption, and nepotism and espousal of political violence”, in dismissing the Sharif government. The President appointed Balakh Sher Mazari as the interim Prime Minister. [Courtesy: The Fourth Republic by Abdus Sattar Ghazali]

        After the dismissal of Nawaz Sharif, for a brief period Benazir Bhutto became the most influential person in determining the composition of the caretaker cabinet during April-May 1993. In the caretaker government, not only Asif Zardari as Benazir’s husband was included, but sons of some of the Sindhi leaders as well as the son-in-law of the president were included. Even the supporters of Benazir criticized her bitterly for unwholesome influence of her husband. Thus, a Pakistan People’s Party supporter complained bitterly, “This politics of husbands, sons, sons-in-laws and brothers is really sickening.” [Courtesy: The Fourth Republic by Abdus Sattar Ghazali]

      • 22 nota December 28, 2009 at 1:51 pm

        Even the supporters of Benazir criticized her bitterly for unwholesome influence of her husband. Thus, a Pakistan People’s Party supporter complained bitterly, “This politics of husbands, sons, sons-in-laws and brothers is really sickening.”

        It was sickening then and even more so today, as is “maladministration, corruption, and nepotism and espousal of political violence” (the last just threatened by Zardari). But are you suggesting that because the “accountability process” is a mockery, we shall have none of it? Come on, Sir! That holds no weight. Even your PM agrees court did no wrong in cutting down NRO to size — the parliament too would have done the same.

      • 23 Observer December 28, 2009 at 3:31 pm

        @Aamir

        Maybe I was wrong. I just got a little worried when I saw your comment on Facebook “Benazir: Sindh Salutes This Mother Supreme”

    • 24 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 1:47 pm

      Do read the names in the Cabinet and do some search on their connection with every regime.

      FEDERAL CARETAKER CABINET UNDER THE PRIMER SHIP OF MR. MOEEN QURESHI AND THE PERSONS OF MINISTERIAL STATUS APPOINTED FROM 18. 7. 1993 TO 19. 10. 1993

      Prime Minister Mr. Moeen Qureshi

      1. Mr. Fateh Khan Bandial – Interior & Narcotics Control
      Inter Provincial Coordination

      2. Mr. Ahmad Faruque – Communications and Railways

      3. Syed Babar Ali – Finance & Economic Affairs Planning & Development

      4. Lt. Gen. (Retd) Mohammad Shafiq – Education, Science &
      Technology Population Welfare, Special Education and Social
      Welfare Health, Kashmir Affairs and Northern Affairs

      5. Mr. Abdul Sattar – Foreign Affairs

      6. Mr. Nisar A. Memon – Information & Broadcasting States & Frontier Regions Management Services Culture(Addl. Charge)

      7. Mr. Ali Khan Junejo Food, Agriculture & Cooperatives
      Local Government & Rural Development. Housing and Works Works

      8. Lt. Gen. (Retd.) R. D. Bhatti – Petroleum & Natural
      Resources Production and Defence Production

      9. Mr. Justice (Retd) Abdul Shakurul Salam – Law, Justice &
      Parliamentary Affairs Religious Affairs and Minorities Affairs

      10. Dr. Hafiz A. Pasha – Commerce and Tourism

      11. Dr. D. K. Riaz Baloch – Industries, Labour, Manpower & Overseas Pakistanis, Women Development and Youth Affairs

      12. Mr. Khursheed K. Marker – Water and Power

      PERSONS HAVING MINISTERIAL STATUS

      1. Mr. Saeed Ahmad Qureshi – Deputy chairman Planning
      Commission with the status of Federal Minister

      2. Mr. A. G.N. Kazi – Chairman/Chief Executive of Pakistan
      Investment Board with the Status of Federal Minister

      • 25 nota December 28, 2009 at 1:53 pm

        The point being? I know Moeen Qureshi was an implant of World Bank, sent here to collect due payments to international loan sharks like his employers…

      • 26 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 3:38 pm

        Dear Observer,

        That message wasn’t floated by me rather I was tagged into the message. And, yes I am “guilty” of supplicating for Late. Ms. Benazir Bhutto.

    • 27 nota December 28, 2009 at 3:08 pm

      @Observer
      Speaking of “BB being a “saint”, a “saviour”, a “shaheed” etc. to be worshipped after her death”:
      Tharis deify BB, perform her aarti 😛

      • 28 Observer December 28, 2009 at 3:30 pm

        @nota

        From your link:

        “The devotees paid glowing tributes to Benazir Bhutto for sacrificing her dear life for the sake of democracy and welfare of poor people of the country. ”

        For the sake of democracy?
        Yes, “off course” she worked hard for “true” democracy as long as a Bhutto could lead the country.

        For the welfare of poor people?

        She was on the way to eradicate poverty. All the wealth being questioned in UK, Swiss bank accounts, NY, Dubai and Pakistan etc. were actually meant for eradicating poverty. She maybe intended to sell all these properties and use them on poor people.

        It seems like we never gave up Hindusim. There is not much differnece between the Hindu way and “Muslim” way of BB worship 😦

        YuN To Syed bhi ho, Mirza bhi ho, Afghan bhi ho
        Tum sabhi kuch ho, batao kya musalman bhi ho?

  5. 29 Observer December 28, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    @Aamir

    I already told I did not know this Anjum 🙂

    I am not accusing you. Below are some reflections.

    No matter what happened in the past one cannot deny the truth whereever it comes from. I agree that lifafa journalists should be where they belong to i.e. in the dustbin, but not reflect over these lifafa journalists? Why do we see these lifafa journalists hanging around? Isn’t it because the establishment including the willing fools (the vast majority of politicians) uses them because they think they can benefit from planted/fake stories/fairy tales? The army is the most powerful party in the establishment setup. They also use these “fairy tale” writing journalists, but what is mindboggling is that these willing fools (politicians) always play according to the military tunes, when in power. Show me one elected government which has stood by their promises to their voters when in power. The different governments have implemented all the bad policies and been a partner in crime with the army against Pakistani interests. When the very same governments are sacked they blame the establishment for all the evil. Don’t they have a responsibility to stand by their actions? Why don’t they ensure that they have the powers a civilian government ought to have? Isn’t it because they ARE crooks and only have the aim to do corrupt business? One can say many negative things about Abdul Qayoom Jatoi, but at least the idiot is speaking the truth when he says that according to him they (PPP) have the right to corruption. Not that PPP is the only culprit. PML-N, JUI-F, ANP etc. are at least as bad as these crooks.

    My point is that we cannot continue to say that because this and that person did wrong then my party has the right to do wrong too or that no finger can be pointed towarss anybody because it is a Pakistani custom to do (dirty) business. This is the way to hell. We need to look forward and NOT imitate the past corrupt governments and we need to control the army so they don’t cross the limits. PPP and PML-N has a huge following….they have never used the voter power in a positive sense to show the army their rightful place, but on the other hand they have been eager to show power towards the other institutions including the judiciary. Why? Isn’t it because they are content with status quo? ……is hamam meiN sab naNgey haiN!

    What is the solution?

    Is hamam meiN sab naNgey haiN means that there are so many leaders that have been indulged in corruption that it is impossible to see how they can get back on the right track. One option could be forgiveness if they promise to change, but that requires that they should speak the truth about past crimes. And then ask for forgiveness. Wouldn’t that be the same as a death sentence to their political career? I doubt VERY much a significant number of politicians will do that. The last option is revolution. If we are very lucky it will be a soft revolution, and if we are only lucky then a bloody revolution. The question is “will it happen”? I hope it will happen, but I cannot see clear signs for that to happen. IMO if at all it happens it will be the youth, who will be the backbone and be sure that the heads will roll.

    • 30 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 11:16 pm

      Agreed with your good intentions of “Soft Revolution” but would you like to give some solution to bridge this “Gap of Ethnic, Linguistic, Sectarian and Parochial Divide” and that too horizontally and vertically e.g. Ethnic Hate in Baluchistan, Tension between Nationalists [every ethnic group] in Sindh, Extreme Anti Punjabi Feelings in Baluchistan and Sindh as well [not open but it is there]. Above all please give some suggestion to end this “Sectarian Menace” specifically in NWFP and Southern Punjab. Who will lead this Soft Revolution [if there is one at all] in view of this Divide on Ethnic, Linguistic and Sectarian Lines.

      • 31 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 11:27 pm

        Revolution like Russia, Iran or Wahabi Revolution like Saudi Arabai [three uprisings] needs Ideology. What would be the Ideology of your suggested Soft Revolution e.g. Islamic [then which Interpretation of Islam – Deobandi, Barelvi, Wahabi, Shia or Jamat-e-Islami], Socialist [then majority of Pakistanis are religious (no matter which interpretation) and consider it Un-Godly], Military Putsch [we have already tried 1958-1969, 1969-1971, 1977-1988, 1999-2008] will need support in Baluchistan and Sindh [is there any need to tell that what are sentiments of the people of these two provinces against Military]!!!

      • 32 Observer December 28, 2009 at 11:31 pm

        @Aamir,

        The foremost issue is JUSTICE. If we can deal with every province/ethnic group with JUSTICE then we can overcome many challenges.

        IMO the religious issues are more tough than the above mentioned issue. The hard core mullahs are hard nuts to crack. Maybe the only way is to provide proper Qur’an education in public schools and upwards in order to break Mullah’s “right” to interpret Qur’an and hence tell us what is right and what is wrong i.e. we must make Qur’an teachings available (mandatory) to all from the very step into the public schools!

        Btw: I don’t mind if someone insists on using their local language. My personal opinion is that everyone should have the right to choose what they like, but Urdu should be our national language. To change Urdu as the national language would create immense challenges for us. English as the national language will be a disgrace. The British has enslaved us in the past and to keep the English language as the national language is a disgrace. Btw: I am in favor of learning English or any other language that can help us making trade or good relations to a nation!

      • 33 Observer December 28, 2009 at 11:35 pm

        @Aamir

        I am not in favor of sectarianism. Personally I do not belong to any sect. I follow sunnah and say I am a MUSLIM. My source of knowledge is Qur’an – anything else can be debatable.

  6. 34 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    It seems like we never gave up Hindusim. There is not much differnece between the Hindu way and “Muslim” way of BB worship [Observer]
    ================

    Dear Sir,

    If that is so then why this condemnation is only restricted to Benazir Bhutto. How would you justify several such practices around the Shrines of Sufi Saints scattered around Pakistan and devotees around these Shrines are Kalima Reciting Muslims [Read Barelvis]

    • 35 Observer December 28, 2009 at 11:02 pm

      @Aamir

      The criticism is NOT restricted to BB. I am not in favor of those practices either.

      • 36 Aamir Mughal December 28, 2009 at 11:20 pm

        Sir,

        Majority of our Rural Population is bent towards Sufi and Sufi shrines, and practices therein [which you don’t favour but it is like Pillar for them], let say that you are leading the team of “Soft Revolutionaries” in the country side then how would you convince those who follow above practices to shun such activities and be part of “Soft Revolution”???

      • 37 nota December 29, 2009 at 5:26 am

        Become a “Pir”. The rest would be easy… 😛

      • 38 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 10:28 am

        This too would be tricky because there were Pirs and Shrine Keepers who supported Jinnah on Pakistan and most of the Mullahs of Deobandi, Barelvi, Ahle-Hadith Sects and last but not the least Mawdudi and JI had opposed Pakistan by tooth and nail. Deobandis took one step more and used to be the party members of Congress. If that was not enough these Mullahs of Deoband had defined Hindu and Muslim “a Single Qaum – Nation”. Barring Two Traditionalist Deobandis i.e. Maulana Asharf Ali Thanvi and Allama Shabbir Ahmed Usmani every other was against Jinnah and Pakistan. Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi had issued Fatwa against Jinnah and several leading Founding Fathers of Pakistan and Muslim League. By the way it was Liaquat Ali Khan who had restored the Sufi Order of Pir Pagara in Sindh after partition.

        Secular Republic or Islamic Republic of Pakistan
        http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/secular-republic-or-islamic-republic-of.html

      • 39 Observer December 29, 2009 at 11:20 am

        As long as the least talented lot of the youth will be sent to the madrassas to get “Islamic” education we will continue to be mislead like we did on the partition issue by certain mullahs like Maududi..

      • 40 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 11:31 am

        Madressahs or pupil therein are not responsible for this mess rather some State Institutions used some elements for the their so-called Strategic Depths i.e. to serve the Myopic and Tunnel Vision of National Security floated by General Beg, General Hamid Gul, General Aziz, General Mahmood and last but not the least Musharraf. Madressahs and pupil therein are not responsible.

      • 41 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 10:30 am

        Deobandi’s Definition of “UMMAH”

        The ‘United Nationalism’ of Maulana Madni – i By Yoginder Sikand Dated Published in the 1-15 Aug 2004 print edition of MG
        http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2004/01-15Aug04-Print-Edition/011508200434.htm

        The ‘United Nationalism’ of Maulana Madni-ii By Yoginder Sikand Dated Published in the 16-31 Aug 2004 print edition of MG
        http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2004/16-31Aug04-Print-Edition/163108200472.htm

      • 42 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 10:34 am

        Late. Mawlana Abul Kalam Azad was a Salafi and also a Congress Leader, read what he has to say to Late. Agha Shorish Kashmiri on Pakistan.

        Maulana Abul Kalam Azad: The Man Who Knew The Future Of Pakistan Before Its Creation THE MAN WHO KNEW THE FUTURE by Shorish Kashmiri, Matbooat Chattan, Lahore http://www.newageislam.org/NewAgeIslamBooksAndDocuments_1.aspx?ArticleID=2139

      • 43 Observer December 29, 2009 at 11:16 am

        @nota

        That profession would be the most convenient ;-)………but you know I fear for the heat I will face in that case….from the Almighty off course.

      • 44 Observer December 28, 2009 at 11:37 pm

        @Aamir

        Educating the masses is the way out of this mess. I wouldn’t force anybody to take my belief. People can worship as they want.

  7. 45 Observer December 29, 2009 at 11:41 am

    @Aamir

    “Madressahs and pupil therein are not responsible.”

    Agreed, the main resposibilty is the leadership of the country…primarily the army and then the corrupt politicians=the “najaiz” children of the army.

    • 46 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 11:56 am

      Sir,

      As I told you earlier that I was part of that so-called Accountability Process of Laghari, Saif and Pakistan Army [after Military Mutiny in 1999], and Musharraf and his rampant General had an opportunity to cleanse the mess from Pakistan [starting the cleaning from Military and Judiciary] and they lost that Golden Opportunity because “Musharraf and his Vagabond Corps Commanders” had declared “shamelessly” that Military and Judiciary have built in System of Check and Balance, a glimpse of Check and Balance is as under:

      Just before the “FALL OF DHAKA” do enjoy the picture of General Yahya Khan awith Nixon [Yahya’s Rampant Assassination Brigade were Butchering Bengalis (60% voted for Pakistan) in the Former East Pakistan, Dear Avdul please upload the pictures and Nixon’s instructions to the US State Deptt. for protecting Yahya. [FRM DECLASSIFIED US GOVT. DOCUMENTS]

      “QUOTE”

      Handwritten note from President Richard M. Nixon on an April 28, 1971, National Security Council decision paper: “To all hands. Don’t squeeze Yahya at this time – RMN”

      The Tilt: The U.S. and the South Asian Crisis of 1971
      National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 79
      http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/

      “UNQUOTE”

      Let give you a glimpse as to who is ruling and ruining and running the country:

      Read…

      Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report

      http://www.bangla2000.com/Bangladesh/Independence-War/Report-Hamoodur-Rahman/default.shtm

      Chapter 1

      The Moral Aspect

      Introductory

      In Chapter I of Part V of the Main Report, we have dealt at some length with the moral aspect of the causes of our defeat in the 1971 War. This became necessary in view of the vehement assertions made before the Commission by a large number of respectable witnesses drawn from various sections of society, including highly placed and responsible Service Officers, to the effect that due to corruption arising out of the performance of Martial Law duties, lust for wine and women and greed for lands and houses, a large number of senior Army Officers, particularly those occupying the highest positions, had not only lost the will to fight but also the professional competence necessary for taking the vital and critical decisions demanded of them for the successful prosecution of the war. It was asserted by these witnesses that men given to a disreputable way of life could hardly be expected to lead the Pakistan Army to victory

      http://www.bangla2000.com/Bangladesh/Independence-War/Report-Hamoodur-Rahman/chapter1.shtm

      • 47 nota December 29, 2009 at 4:20 pm

        “In Chapter I of Part V of the Main Report, we have dealt at some length with the moral aspect of the causes of our defeat in the 1971 War. This became necessary in view of the vehement assertions made before the Commission by a large number of respectable witnesses drawn from various sections of society, including highly placed and responsible Service Officers, to the effect that due to corruption arising out of the performance of Martial Law duties, lust for wine and women and greed for lands and houses, a large number of senior Army Officers, particularly those occupying the highest positions, had not only lost the will to fight but also the professional competence necessary for taking the vital and critical decisions demanded of them for the successful prosecution of the war. It was asserted by these witnesses that men given to a disreputable way of life could hardly be expected to lead the Pakistan Army to victory”

        And that holds even more true today — except maybe the lust for “wine and women” having been replaced with lust for DHA plots. I say hang all the bastards! but who will do it? Their “Supreme Commander-in-Chief”? Na — he is too busy seeing no “10%” share of his gets away….

        But army’s corruption — once again — does not have anything to do with the corruption of politicians. @Aamir, you why do you keep bringing this up? This kind of “defense” is again no defense but an admission of guilt (though no confirmation is needed).

        Would you agree: BOTH — Army and Politicians — are corrupt to the core?

  8. 48 Observer December 29, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    @nota

    “Would you agree: BOTH — Army and Politicians — are corrupt to the core?”

    No doubt, but what is the way out except an unexpected REVOLUTION? I don’t think truth and reconciliation will work since most army men and politicians will NOT accept that they received bribes etc.

    • 49 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 5:01 pm

      Revolution! What kind???

      You have opined in one of your comment above that Quranic Education is the way out. Show me any verse of Quran suggesting Revolution particularly the Bloody Revolution.

      • 50 Observer December 29, 2009 at 5:18 pm

        @Aamir

        Why do you avoid answering simple and straight forward questions? Nota asked a simple question. Instead of answering that question you are asking for references in Qur’an for a bloody revolution.

  9. 51 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    But army’s corruption — once again — does not have anything to do with the corruption of politicians. @Aamir, you why do you keep bringing this up? [Nota]
    =====================

    Because of this:

    ISLAMABAD: The main wheeler and dealer of the ISI during the 2002 elections, the then Maj-Gen Ehtesham Zamir, now retired, has come out of the closet and admitted his guilt of manipulating the 2002 elections, and has directly blamed Gen Musharraf for ordering so. Talking to The News, the head of the ISI’s political cell in 2002, admitted manipulating the last elections at the behest of President Musharraf and termed the defeat of the King’s party, the PML-Q, this time “a reaction of the unnatural dispensation (installed in 2002).” Zamir said the ISI together with the NAB was instrumental in pressing the lawmakers to join the pro-Musharraf camp to form the government to support his stay in power. REFERENCE: The man, who rigged 2002 polls, spills the beans By Umar Cheema Sunday, February 24, 2008 http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=13159

    WATCH THIS DETAILS DAWN NEWS PROGRAM:

    DAWN News TV Investigation Report with Masood Sharif – 6th January 2008 – This DAWN News TV Investigation Report was aired just before that election and features people who have affected past elections and Pakistan’s democratic process in many ways including General Ali Kuli Khan Khattak, General Hamid Gul, Maj (Retd) Masood Sharif Khan Khattak, General Roedad Khan, Air Marshall Asghar Khan, Brig Imtiaz Ahmed, Maj Aamir and more. http://www.sharifpost.com/2008/01/06/dawn-news-tv-investigation-report/

  10. 52 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    @Aamir, you why do you keep bringing this up? This kind of “defense” is again no defense but an admission of guilt (though no confirmation is needed). Would you agree: BOTH — Army and Politicians — are corrupt to the core? [NOTA]
    =================

    NAB and other such Anti Corruption Establishments were provided God Given Opportunity in 1999 to cleanse the mess but they didn’t avail that opportunity. I am witness to that personally.

    • 53 Observer December 29, 2009 at 5:43 pm

      @Aamir

      Is it me or did you answer nota’s question?

      nota wrote:
      “Would you agree: BOTH — Army and Politicians — are corrupt to the core?”

      Do you agree or not?

  11. 55 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    I say hang all the bastards! but who will do it? Their “Supreme Commander-in-Chief”? Na — he is too busy seeing no “10%” share of his gets away….[Nota]
    ====

    Agreed with but who will hang them? Please suggest the method.

    @Aamir – Why do you avoid answering simple and straight forward questions? Nota asked a simple question. Instead of answering that question you are asking for references in Qur’an for a bloody revolution. As long as the least talented lot of the youth will be sent to the madrassas to get “Islamic” education we will continue to be mislead like we did on the partition issue by certain mullahs like Maududi..[Observer]

    ——–

    Sir,

    Mawdudi wasn’t a graduate of any Madressah. I am still asking for that Quranic Reference for the Justification of any kind of revolution because Pakistan is a country of Muslims and you would have to convince at least those who are educated and know about Islamic Law, as to which kind of Revolution you are suggesting.

    • 56 Observer December 29, 2009 at 5:38 pm

      @Aamir

      “Pakistan is a country of Muslims and you would have to convince at least those who are educated and know about Islamic Law, as to which kind of Revolution you are suggesting.”

      Muslims?
      As such I agree with you. There are many Muslims in Pakistan, but where do we find Islam?

      In Europe there are not many Muslims, but you find a plenty initiatives which could have been Islamic……I know the intention is not to implement Islamic laws, but nevertheless you find humanity in many initiatives!

      • 57 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 5:46 pm

        Even living in Europe and USA after 911 is against Islam because:

        Secular Democratic – Anglo Saxon system and Islam are two different systems and instead of perverting both [i mean mixing it] one must choose between either one of them.

        If those who are living in West and enjoying Lucrative Jobs in Purely Infidel Setup and that too an Infidel Military Setup, and also have “ITCH” for Islam then Quran and Hadith should be ultimate for them. They should go back to their Islamic “Home Country” and start living in Muslim Society and should sacrifice Green Bucks and Social Security.

        Those who want to observe Islam, Veil and Islamic Culture should come back and live in Afghanistan and Northern Areas of Pakistan.

        إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ قَالُواْ فِيمَ كُنتُمْ قَالُواْ كُنَّا مُسْتَضْعَفِينَ فِي الأَرْضِ قَالْوَاْ أَلَمْ تَكُنْ أَرْضُ اللّهِ وَاسِعَةً فَتُهَاجِرُواْ فِيهَا فَأُوْلَـئِكَ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ وَسَاءتْ مَصِيرًا

        Lo! as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they wrong themselves, (the angels) will ask: In what were ye engaged? They will say: We were oppressed in the land. (The angels) will say: Was not Allah’s earth spacious that ye could have migrated therein? As for such, their habitation will be hell, an evil journey’s end; [AN-NISA (WOMEN) Chapter 4 Verse 97]

        Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” [Sunnan Abu Dawood]

        It is obligatory to migrate from the kaafir lands to the Muslim lands for those who are able to do that, if they are unable to practise their religion openly.

        Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki said: Hijrah (migration) means leaving dar al-harb [non-Muslim lands] and going to dar al-islam [Muslim lands]. This was obligatory at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and remains so after his time for those who fear for their lives. From Nayl al-Awtaar, 8/33, by al-Shawkaani.

        Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said concerning the hadeeth, “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen”:

        This is to be understood as referring to those who are not safe to practise their religion there. Fath al-Baari

      • 58 nota December 29, 2009 at 6:10 pm

        Well, I found it much easier to be a muslim under that “Secular Democratic – Anglo Saxon system” than the bad xeroxed “Secular Democratic – Anglo Saxon system” we have here…

      • 59 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 6:27 pm

        Kudos to you Sir. At least you have the courage to call spade a spade, I salute you on this. Now read this

        Jamat-e-Islami [when JI was part of MMA and sharing power with General Musharraf’s Q League and PPP Sherpao] presented a Bill called Hasba Bill to enforce Islam in Pakistan and that bill was presented during General Musharraf’s Government and that Bill was rejected by CJ Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry [when he was serving General Musharraf in 2005] and that too on the appeal of General [The Martial Law Administrator] Pervez Musharraf. General Musharraf was party to the case. Two opinion/stands can hardly be correct at the same time, either MMA’s Islamic Hasba Bill was Un-Islamic or CJ Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry was against Islamic Shariah. If JI was honest then why the same JI is now participating in the Lawyers Long March and by doing so they are accepting that Pakistan must be run on Secular Basis through Anglo Saxon Law and Anglo Saxon Courts. CJ Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry and Co. by accepting such Islamo fascists like JI amidst the Secular Legal Mind, is basically compromising with his own decision which he had given against the Deviant Religious Right Wing of Pakistan. By the way why the so-called Epitome of Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry is even accepting cooperation from one of the party [Jamat-e-Islami] who gave Pakistan the Gift of Unconstitutional LFO and 17 Constitutional Amendment which had given blanket to the Unfirom and every wrong wrong and unconstitutional step of a Military Dictator General Musharraf.

        If Hasba Bill was right then why did the JI accepted the SC Decision and if it was wrong then why Hasba Bill was presented at all and if both the statement are wrong then what was the need to exploit the name of Islam to get some vote. Read the past history

        Hasba bill infringes personal freedom: SC By Nasir Iqbal

        September 1, 2005 Thursday Rajab 26, 1426

        http://www.dawn.com/2005/09/01/top4.htm

        MMA to accept SC decision: Durrani By Anwar Iqbal

        July 18, 2005 Monday Jumadi-us-Sani 10, 1426

        http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/18/top2.htm

        Text of Hasba bill

        July 16, 2005 Saturday Jumadi-us-Sani 8, 1426

        http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/16/nat18.htm

        AFTER THREE YEARS:

        JI to participate in lawyers’ long march, sit-in

        http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=69220

        Updated at: 1030 PST, Saturday, February 21, 2009

      • 60 nota December 29, 2009 at 6:44 pm

        @Aamir
        Yes, the whole world is bad. Every party is bad….except of course PPP.

        I dare you to say “PPP leadership is one of the most corrupt!” Or how about “PPP leadership is as corrupt as that of PML-N and JI”

  12. 61 Observer December 29, 2009 at 5:33 pm

    @Aamir

    “Show me any verse of Quran suggesting Revolution particularly the Bloody Revolution.”

    Why are you asking for this? I didn’t say it is qur’an verse demanding this.

    Btw: I don’t see anything against a revolution in Qur’an, when the rulers are corrupt and hang on to power against the majority. What happened in the early stage of Islam is no less than a revolution. When the ruling elite of Mekka didn’t comply they were defeated. Are you against that?
    Pakistan is an Islamic country and to demand justice is a human right. If the corrupt leadership uses inhumane acts to hang on to power, then there is maybe only the bloody revolution left.

    I have already said I prefer a soft revolution, but if not then let it be bloody one since all the culprits are not going to vanish/evaporate by themselves.

    Come on let’s have sober debate 🙂
    What is your solution? Dare to answer?

    • 62 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 5:42 pm

      How many died during and after the conquest of Makkah? and by the way the Ruling Elite of Makkah were infidels and Rulers in Pakistan are Muslim [no matter how corrupt but Muslims].

      Human Rights is an alien Ideology and nothing to do with Islamic Law.

      Let it be bloody revolution – Pakistan is an Islamic country. Pakistan is an Islamic country [Observer]
      ====

      Quote any reference from Islamic History when Revolution was launched to cleanse society. With Valid Reference of Quran and Hadith.

      • 63 Observer December 29, 2009 at 5:48 pm

        @Aamir

        “Human Rights is an alien Ideology and nothing to do with Islamic Law.”

        I think we maybe have a serious difference here. IMO God given human rights has everything to with the Islam.

      • 64 nota December 29, 2009 at 6:05 pm

        “and by the way the Ruling Elite of Makkah were infidels and Rulers in Pakistan are Muslim [no matter how corrupt but Muslims].”

        I beg to differ….

  13. 65 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    @Aamir – “Human Rights is an alien Ideology and nothing to do with Islamic Law.” – I think we maybe have a serious difference here. IMO God given human rights has everything to with the Islam.

    ================

    1 – Parliamentary form of government – give me verse of Quran and proof from Sunnah.

    2 – Freedom of Expression/Media [with female announcers] – give me proof from Quran and Sunnah.

    3 – Elections based on Adult Franchise – Give me proof from Quran and Sunnah.

    IMO God given human rights has everything to with the Islam.[Observer]

    Such as….????

    • 66 Observer December 29, 2009 at 6:00 pm

      @Aamir

      To mention a very basic human right….not to kill.

      5:32

      “SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. “

    • 69 nota December 29, 2009 at 6:08 pm

      @Aamir
      “Such as….????”

      Are you serious?

      • 70 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 6:14 pm

        Yes I am serious provide reference from Quran and Hadith for

        1 – Parliamentary form of government – give me verse of Quran and proof from Sunnah.

        2 – Freedom of Expression/Media [with female announcers] – give me proof from Quran and Sunnah.

        3 – Elections based on Adult Franchise – Give me proof from Quran and Sunnah.

        If one want to live in the West then follow their Law and don’t complain about Prohibition of Veil, dont raise hue and cry when someone amongst them use ‘Freedom of Expression’ to practice Homosexuality and Lesbianism openly [what do you think when an underage or even adult Muslim male or female watch these acts of Hedonism? Wont this effect him or her? Forbidden as per Quran to even go near to those things which lead to Adultery].

        وَلاَ تَقْرَبُواْ الزِّنَى إِنَّهُ كَانَ فَاحِشَةً وَسَاء سَبِيلاً

        And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way.[AL-ISRA (ISRA’, THENIGHT JOURNEY, CHILDREN OF ISRAEL) Chapter 17 Verse 32]

        Even watching these things gives you wrong ideas?

        What about your Tax Money through which USA and other NATO Countries financing War On Terror and bombing Innocent Muslims? Forbidden in Quran to help Combatant Non-Muslims in any way. What do you think your Tax Money does? Undoubtedly the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not compromise in matters of his religion. When he was in Makkah, before the Hijrah, he used to pray openly, whilst they were looking on. After the Muslims became a distinct community, a specific style of dress was ordained for them, and they commanded to forsake anything else that was a symbol of kufr and was distinctive to the kuffaar, because this is imitation, and whoever imitates a people is one of them.

        How can the believer be content to live in the land of the Non Muslims where the rituals of kufr [Disbelief] are proclaimed openly and rule belongs to someone other than Allaah and His Messenger, seeing that with his own eyes, hearing that with his own ears and approving of it, and even starting to feel that he belongs there and living there with his wife and children, and feeling as comfortable there as he does in the Muslim lands, even though he and his wife and children are in such great danger and their religious commitment and morals are in such peril?

        AS PER PURE ISLAMIC LAW [FOR WHICH THIS UMMAH IS ITCHING] and since theses don’t exist in the West and that is why those who condemn Secular-Anglo-Saxon Western Democarcies should come back to ‘Islamic Countires’. Following are the salient feature of the Secular Democracies through which Islamic Political Activists Type of Muslims and those who belong to Jamat-e-Islami and Ikwan but settled in the West, reap all the benefits and then shamelessly raise finger against the same system.

      • 71 nota December 29, 2009 at 6:40 pm

        Well, I cannot provide you Quranic references with references to:

        1 – Parliamentary form of government – give me verse of Quran and proof from Sunnah.

        2 – Freedom of Expression/Media [with female announcers] – give me proof from Quran and Sunnah.

        3 – Elections based on Adult Franchise – Give me proof from Quran and Sunnah.

        Nor did I claim them to be Islamic entities. In fact I have argued against 1st and 3rd. Regarding the 2nd, I doubt T.V. was around back then so really it doesn’t not figure into it directly 😉
        I think you are looking at things with a ‘fundamentalist’ mindset — if I may take the liberty to say so — and not at the spirit of the religion. I would claim — maulvi that I am — “Freedom of Expression/Media [with female announcers]” are certainly permissible staying within the bounds of decency though I would add we don’t see it being practiced on our channels today.

        Regarding Human Rights in Quran, I think Dr Riffat Hassan offers more than I ever can.

  14. 72 Observer December 29, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    @Aamir

    “Yes they are but political process no matter how weak and full of faults must go on to make way for new leadership and young blood.”

    Thanks…at last 😉

    In principle I agree with you. When I speak about the revolution, then it is when people loose hope, and that could soon be the case in Pakistan IF Pakistan is to be saved. If there are no correcting measures from the current lot of rulers, then either there will a revolution or Pakistan will cease to exist in the current form.

    • 73 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 6:05 pm

      Jinnah’s Pakistan was finished in 1971 and rest of it can only be saved if Political Process [Electoral Process no matter riddled with Weaknesses] is allowed to continue. There won’t be any Revolution [wake up] in view of Ethnic/Linguistic/Sectarian/Tribal Divide but there will be worse – Remember Yugoslavia???

      • 74 Observer December 29, 2009 at 6:13 pm

        @Aamir

        The electoral proces alone is NOT enough. There was also an “electoral proces” in Saddams Iraq and there still is an “electoral proces” in Egypt and Syria, and still I can tell you there is NO democracy and positive development. You need to ensure clean elections if the process you are speaking about can develop positively!

  15. 75 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 6:09 pm

    “and by the way the Ruling Elite of Makkah were infidels and Rulers in Pakistan are Muslim [no matter how corrupt but Muslims].”

    I beg to differ….[Nota]
    ================

    You cannot take away Faith [Emaan] on the basis of Corruption [Read Islamic Law in Dururu Al Beh by Imam Shawkai and Baloogh al Maram by Ibn Hajr Asqalani]. Also do read material of Kharijites [who were very quick on issuing Fatwa of Kufr on Sin and they didn’t spare Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Muawiyah and Hazrat Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with them].

    • 76 nota December 29, 2009 at 6:22 pm

      Well, for me — personally — being of faith and living a life of corruption are two diametrically opposite things. How can one profess faith and continue with corruption? There is no such thing as a prostitute who’s also a virgin 😉

      It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing. — Surah 2: Al-Baqarah: 177

  16. 81 Observer December 29, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    @Aamir

    What is wromg with you, mate? I have already given you a reference to Qur’an on very basic right.

    I repeat:

    To mention a very basic human right….not to kill.

    5:32

    “SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. “

  17. 84 Observer December 29, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    @Aamir

    Do you live in a land with Islamic laws? I mean how much Islam is practised where you live? Why have you not migrated to…..??? Ups nowhere…Is there a single country in the world following islamic laws….fully?

    Apart from that there will alwasy be many laws humans can make such as traffic laws and education etc.

    You are making a mockery of the debate. I don’t know what happened to you? Please come back on track!

    • 85 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 6:30 pm

      Still I say that I live amongst Muslims and it is far better than living in the West whose Tax Money [if you live in the West and pay taxes] is used in bombing Muslims in the so-called War on Terror.

      • 86 nota December 29, 2009 at 6:51 pm

        And that is why I left the U.S. I did not pay taxes after 9/11. But now I find myself paying taxes that go to support not only a war on muslims but also my countrymen. Now what do I ought to do??

      • 87 Observer December 29, 2009 at 6:59 pm

        @Aamir

        You are probably right that some of my money might end up against Muslims (that hurts), but on other accounts I can practice Islam better, f.ex. I have never paid bribes. In Pakistan you need to pay bribe everywhere. I have personally witnessed bribes in connection with a hajj application. I don’t believe your money is spent much different in the current scenario (bombing our brothers on the western border and selling the Afghan Taliban to the US)…provided you pay your taxes. At least you pay the indirect taxes I suppose.

        In other words living here or there doesn’t matter right now. We are all in a mess.

    • 88 nota December 29, 2009 at 6:42 pm

      @Observer
      “You are making a mockery of the debate. I don’t know what happened to you? Please come back on track!”

      Just a reminder: The topic was “The Latest Ahmed Mukhtar “Drone Can Land But Not Take Off” Award” 😉

      • 89 Observer December 29, 2009 at 7:14 pm

        @nota

        Sorry, I am partly guilty of messing up this thread, but at least you got some extra traffic on your blog 🙂

  18. 90 Observer December 29, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    @Aamir

    Nobody ever claimed to be a saint. Please don’t take any of the arguments personally. I think the whole matter started when you refused to answer simple questions while you got all the answers. My personal aim with this debate is not to degrade you or anybody else. It is to educate and be educated 🙂

    • 91 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 7:27 pm

      I think the whole matter started when you refused to answer simple questions while you got all the answers.
      ====
      No Sir, my question is still there “How would you bring soft or hard revolution and who will lead the revolution?

      • 92 Observer December 29, 2009 at 7:35 pm

        @Aamir

        I don’t know bro. I am no Oracle…………….Revolutions can be quite unpredictable, but still I suppose it will come from common man. I hope we can avoid it, but as earlier mentioned that requires a fair amount of “insaniyat” from the current rulers, which I don’t see coming.

        Btw: Name me one single issue where PPP has excelled in the past two years? They haven’t even solved the murder case of late BB….that’s a disgrace…..PPP is in power!

      • 93 nota December 29, 2009 at 8:27 pm

        Hey, I am just hoping for one to come by so I can join the ride 😉

      • 94 nota December 29, 2009 at 8:27 pm

        “Name me one single issue where PPP has excelled in the past two years?”

        Corruption! 😛

        “They haven’t even solved the murder case of late BB….that’s a disgrace…..PPP is in power!”

        Solved? They haven’t even filed the FIR yet (In fact blocked many from being filed)

      • 95 Observer December 29, 2009 at 8:33 pm

        @Nota

        “Name me one single issue where PPP has excelled in the past two years?”

        Corruption!
        —————————–

        Damn…you beat me. I didn’t think about that “achievement” 😉

  19. 96 Observer December 29, 2009 at 7:08 pm

    @Aamir

    Did you see Abdul Qayoom Jatoi the other day? At least that moron was honest when he said “It is our right to do corruption”. Having said that I wouldn’t say PML-N is less corrupt. JI has had their share too, but in the recent history they have not misbehaved as much as I would have excpected, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they came out with the full force at some stage.

    • 97 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 7:31 pm

      Jatoi was on ExpressNews Channel and Reality of Expressnews Channel is as under:

      Talat Hussain, AAJ TV, “Ghairat – Honour” & Express News.
      http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/12/talat-hussain-aaj-tv-ghairat-honour.html

      Five journalists who were in the waiting list are:
      1- Rauf Klasra, Cat-II, Seniority Number-29
      2- Amir Mateen, Cat-II, Seniority Number-14
      3- Kiani Khaleeq Ahmad Khan, Cat-II, Seniority Number-25
      4- Javed Chaudhry, Cat-II, Seniority Number-20
      Journalist Corruption Scandal – Rauf Klasra
      http://pkpolitics.com/2009/07/20/journalist-corruption-scandal-rauf-klasra/

    • 99 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 7:36 pm

      JI AND INTELLECTUAL CORRUPTION [MORE DANGEROUS THAN ANY CORRUPTION:

      Ayub’s secularism as part of the military culture of British Indian Army was like an open book without any fine print. Even the prefix Islamic attaching to the Republic of Pakistan was dropped until restored under the writ of superior judiciary.
      That continued to be the case until the fateful day of 1965 when India attacked Pakistan along the international border, with Lahore as its principal target. Even in his first address to the nation within hours of the Indian invasion, Ayub went on to recite the ‘Kalama-i-Tayyaba’ in a stirring, emotion-choked voice. His subsequent meeting with religious parties – mainly the Jamaat-i-Islami under Maulana ‘Abul ‘Ala Maududi – marked the beginning of the military-mullah nexus. Yahya would not have much to do with things spiritual until the induction of retired Maj.-Gen. Sher Ali Khan into his cabinet as minister in-charge of information and national affairs. He initiated Yahya into ideological lore and saddled him with the mission of protecting the ‘ideology of Pakistan and the glory of Islam’. Yahya’s intelligence chief, Major-(later Lieut.) Gen. Muhammad Akbar Khan made no secret of his close liaison with the Jamaat-i-Islami especially in respect of its pro-active role in East Pakistan. The Jamaat was to go even to the extent of certifying Yahya’s draft constitution as Islamic. The draft was authored by Justice A.R. Cornelius, Yahya’s law minister. As for Zia, he embarked on his Islamization programme even as he assumed his army command.

      The series of assassinations in Former East Pakistan [now Bangladesh] was started from 1969 when a Shams Duaa-Haa, professor of Chemistry in Rajshahi University, was assassinated in daylight. Let me explain what the Al-Badar and Al-Shams were and are? Al-Badar was and is militant wing of Jamait Islami and a paramilitary force formed in Bangladesh in 1971 by General Yahya INC. Al-Badar forget that what the real Jihad is ?

      And fight against the Muslims in Bangladesh, Bengalis use to call Al-Badar as “Butcher of Bangladesh.” The Al Badar was assigned a variety of combat and non-combat tasks including taking part in the operations, spying against Bengali Intellectuals, interrogation, working as the guides for Tikka Khan and Niazi, assassination, detecting and killing Bengali intellectuals. The force was composed of madrassah students-teachers, supporters of Muslim League and Jamait Islami. History tell us that killings which began on 25 March 1971 and sparked the Bangladesh Liberation War and also led to the deaths of at least 26,000 people as admitted by Pakistan on one hand (by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission) and 3,000,000 by Bangladesh on the other hand, (From 1972 to 1975 the first post-war prime minister of Bangladesh, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, mentioned on several occasions that at least three million died).

      Doctor Fazl Rabbi was an eye specialist; he was kidnapped by Al-Badar. Next day his body was found from a drainage line. His both eyes were vanished and there were marks of switchblade. “What should we think about such peccadilloes?”

      Ex-militants of Al-Badar are settled in UK and other European countries and they are appointed as cleric of mosques there. And I want to remind the readers that too, “Jamait Islami’s former leader Maulana Modudi had rejected the theory of Pakistan but since 1947, when Pakistan came into being, it is claimed by the leaders of Jamait Islami that they are playing leading role of toady.

      • 100 Observer December 29, 2009 at 7:41 pm

        @Aamir

        I don’t think you are hitting nota or me with negative news about JI. As far as I know none of us are “hang arounds” in those circles 🙂

        Please go ahead with Maududi too I think we are on the same side 😉

      • 101 nota December 29, 2009 at 8:32 pm

        Well I just dont associate the word “intellectual” with JI (or PPP) to begin with. I do associate “corruption” — both “moral” and “monetary” (not “intellectual” as that with be considering people like RM, Awan, etc. as have some intellect) with PPP.

    • 102 nota December 29, 2009 at 8:22 pm

      “Did you see Abdul Qayoom Jatoi the other day?”

      Now I know Jatoi took a lot of heat for it but I really appreciated his answer. Yes, here we had for once a politician being honest and for that he got bashed. Go figure…

      • 103 Observer December 29, 2009 at 8:25 pm

        @nota

        Now we only need him (Jatoi) to admit that he is regular visitor of diff. “chakla” houses. Did you see the video on Lucman show?

      • 104 nota December 29, 2009 at 8:36 pm

        @observer
        “Now we only need him (Jatoi) to admit that he is regular visitor of diff. “chakla” houses. Did you see the video on Lucman show?”

        I saw it when it first came out and followed that Cat House thing back then.

        But then that video was on Lucman show that is on ExpressNews so don’t believe it 🙂

      • 105 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 9:18 pm

        Same Lucman was in Musharraf’s Caretaker Regime!!! and same Lucman is in ExpressNews Channel – Who Owns Pakistan by Shahid ur Rehman and read about Lakhnais [Owners of ExpressNews TV]

      • 106 nota December 29, 2009 at 10:31 pm

        @Aamer
        “Same Lucman was in Musharraf’s Caretaker Regime!!! and same Lucman is in ExpressNews Channel ”

        Again the same useless reasoning and again to deflect from PPPs crimes 🙂

        BTW: The only PDFs of “Who Owns Pakistan by Shahid ur Rehman” on the web are copies of the one I myself put together, though all credit goes to whoever created this site 😉

      • 107 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 10:52 pm

        I am talking about the Hard Copy. How can the Talk Shows be credible when relayed from TV Channels which are owned by known loan defaulters and close confidants of those of whom you are declaring me an agent or supporter.

      • 108 nota December 30, 2009 at 5:31 am

        @Aamer
        Me:

        “@Aamer
        “Read about Lakhanis, his Friendship/Connections, Loan Default, Criminal Cases, Plea Bargain, of the same NAB of whose reports you are quoting on PPP.”

        Are you serious? Get this in your head dude: JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…and NABs corruption or Lakhanis corruption does not take any thing away from that!!!!!

        You seem to be arguing that just because a dog came on Expressnews I am not to believe it was a dog because it was on Expressnews and Expressnews is owned by a corrupt guy? What king of a screwed up logic is that?”

        You:

        “How can the Talk Shows be credible when relayed from TV Channels which are owned by known loan defaulters and close confidants of those of whom you are declaring me an agent or supporter.”

        Wow! This is beyond incredible! Are you being intentionally dense?? This is just so freaky, really. I just cannot imagine you are arguing this. This is just a total waste of time. Your argument is totally illogical.

  20. 109 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    @Aamir – I don’t think you are hitting nota or me with negative news about JI. As far as I know none of us are “hang arounds” in those circles – Please go ahead with Maududi too I think we are on the same side [Observer]
    ================

    Hitting is not the word. Sharing is the right word.

  21. 111 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 9:15 pm

    Sorry but this is LAME! Because Jatoi said that on ExpressNews and ExpressNews is bad, let’s ignore Jatoi and focus on ExpressNews?
    Now that is totally ridiculous!!!!! [Nota]
    =================

    Read about Lakhanis, his Friendship/Connections, Loan Default, Criminal Cases, Plea Bargain, of the same NAB of whose reports you are quoting on PPP.

    Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged! and Let He Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone

    • 112 nota December 29, 2009 at 10:37 pm

      @Aamer
      “Read about Lakhanis, his Friendship/Connections, Loan Default, Criminal Cases, Plea Bargain, of the same NAB of whose reports you are quoting on PPP.”

      Are you serious? Get this in your head dude: JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…JATOI ADMITTED HE IS CORRUPT…and NABs corruption or Lakhanis corruption does not take any thing away from that!!!!!

      You seem to be arguing that just because a dog came on Expressnews I am not to believe it was a dog because it was on Expressnews and Expressnews is owned by a corrupt guy? What king of a screwed up logic is that?

      • 113 Aamir Mughal December 29, 2009 at 10:56 pm

        Sir,

        Since you claim that you have uploaded Who Owns Pakistan on Net then please do some search on Lakhanis and Corruption cases against them. Cases of NAB were registered against them. How can their talk shows be credible. These Talk Shows are worst kind of comedy with the people of this country. Loan Default of Lakhani is of NDFC-UBL.

        Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged! and Let He Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone

      • 114 nota December 30, 2009 at 5:36 am

        @Aamer
        “please do some search on Lakhanis and Corruption cases against them. Cases of NAB were registered against them. How can their talk shows be credible. These Talk Shows are worst kind of comedy with the people of this country. Loan Default of Lakhani is of NDFC-UBL.”

        Same insane/incredible argument. I think we had it established Lakhanis were corrupt. How that translates into not believing Jatoi (“I am corrupt, I AM !”) just because he said it on a talkshow on a channel owned by Lakhanis is just plain weird.

        “Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged! and Let He Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone”
        I am just casting some rotten tomatoes…And please do feel free to judge me.

      • 116 nota December 30, 2009 at 5:37 am

        @Aamer
        “Here is the news on Express News “Snow White Lakhanis” ”

        You had posted this above. And again Lakhanis are not the issue here.

      • 117 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 6:47 am

        Yes it does matter here when GEO/ARY/EXPRESSNEWS/DawnNews Channel lecture everyone about Morality, Good Governance and Clean Record then first they should cleanse their own organizations from such menaces and then they could blame anybody else.

      • 119 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 8:04 am

        Sir,

        Now Javed Jabbar has joined this Media Frenzy to lecture Pakistanis about Democracy whereas he was the Information Minister during Musharraf Martial Law Cabinet of 1999????

      • 120 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 8:05 am

        How about Dawn News Channel [newspaper was founded by Jinnah] and TV channel was inaugurated by a Military Dictator [Jinnah must be very jittery in his grave]

      • 121 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 8:07 am

        Can we ask Kamran Khan Source of Income who is living in a House worth more than 5 Carore Pak Rupees and he drive sports car. How many honest journalists do that??? Yet he has the audacity to lecture all of us about “Clean Govt”.

      • 122 Observer December 30, 2009 at 11:06 am

        @Aamir

        You are a hard core PPP supporter in the “Fauzia Wahab class”, then why don’t you ask your government to catch these people? You know their (corrupt journalists) income and you know their assets, then it must be simple calculation, and that too for a former IB officer.

      • 123 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 11:13 am

        Wrong again, read my posts on my blog on Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto Asif Ali Ali Zaradri and Hussain Haqqani and then be judgmental about my affiliation.

      • 124 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 11:01 am

        These Journalists/Analysts e.g. Kamran Khan, Mubashir Lucman, Zahid Hussain [Newsline], Najam Sethi [The Friday Times/Sama]and all such Sanctimonious Hypocrites have no right to lecture Pakistanis over Sovereignty. I have read their analysis when Musharraf Military Junta imposed Martial Law and they are the very people who whip up this “Concocted Fear of Islamic Militancy” through their newspapers and TV Channels. An example is as under of Kamran Khan’s [also a contribute for Washington Post – a pro Zionist US newspaper] Interview to PBS Frontline.

        “QUOTE”

        The ISI is in the Binori Madrassa?

        Yes, yes, yes. They know what’s going on there. But at the same time, you must understand that some of the key people are already with the ISI. I mean, they report back to the ISI. Maybe they are in the forefront of the anti-U.S. campaign or whatever–
        So some of the Islamists are inside the ISI? And the ISI is looking–

        And they report back to the ISI, yes, yes.

        How does that work?

        It works quite good, yes. I think that they have a very reliable penetration source of information. The bottom line here is that, “Look. Whatever you are doing, whatever you do, we understand. But mind you, we cannot afford to harbor Arabs here. We cannot afford to harbor non-Pakistanis here. So please, please cooperate with us on that count.” There is a very deep connections between the religious madrassas, and the key religious scholars, and the establishment. …

        Doesn’t President Musharraf need the Islamists in order to prosecute the Indians? Doesn’t he need them to keep pressure on the Indians in Kashmir?

        Absolutely.

        REFERENCE: In search of Al-Qaeda Interview Kamran Khan This interview was conducted on Sept. 13, 2002.

        “UNQUOTE”

  22. 125 Observer December 30, 2009 at 9:06 am

    @Aamir

    You are being dishonest. You get a question in east and your answer is in west. Pull yourself together and raise the level of debate. Otherwise it doesn’t matter.

    Nobody is saying that we live in a land of saints. You hide PPP corrupt nature nehind the corrupt nature of other crooks. That is dishonest. Call a spade a spade! That will suit you. I am sure you have the capability! Come on, STOP THIS NONSENSE!

  23. 129 Observer December 30, 2009 at 10:17 am

    @Aamir

    At least come out of the closet now and admit what is obvious i.e. when you are encountered with PPP corrupt nature, then your intention or rather JOB is to malign everybody else – 360 degrees around PPP. Please give a clear/honest answer.

  24. 132 Observer December 30, 2009 at 11:21 am

    You want me to read POSTS on your blog to find out your opinion on PPP corruption? Sorry, I have no time for that?

    a. PPP is corrupt
    b. PPP is NOT corrupt
    c. PPP is corrupt, but not as corrupt as other elected parties in the current parliament.
    d. Jatoi interpretation: PPP is corrupt and it is their right

    Is it easier now? What do you say? a, b, c or d?

    • 133 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 11:24 am

      If you don’t want to read then don’t complain.

    • 135 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 11:42 am

      No, Sir.

      I am not interested in winning and loosing because I have seen mess from too closer a distance. What I have written on Bhutto, Benazir, Zia, Zardari, Musharraf, MQM .etc.etc. is usually not written [by any Typical PPP Supporter] and that too by using real name and picture and providing complete personal details [mine].

      • 136 Observer December 30, 2009 at 11:56 am

        You are not typical…you are in the “Fauzia Wahab class”…..look, that’s a compliment 🙂

      • 138 nota December 30, 2009 at 12:41 pm

        Congratulations! And Bravo!

        “[by any Typical PPP Supporter]”
        Finally! At last you admit you are a PPP supporter [though not ‘typical’]. Now that wasn’t so hard, was it? I am still amazed it took you so long.

        BTW: You remind me of someone who goes to take, say, a philosophy paper but insists on writing answers from his physics paper. Of course he gets a zero but he insists his answers were all logically and factually correct and the info contained in them was A-one. Yes they were logical in themselves and yes the info contained in them was A-one. But they were not the answers to the questions asked. So you still get a big fat zero.

      • 139 Observer December 30, 2009 at 12:58 pm

        @nota

        Sorry….I just gave him the prize for winning this “contest” 😉

        Yaah,,,yaahh I know he is modest and refuse to accept his victory 🙂

      • 140 nota December 30, 2009 at 1:15 pm

        That is so, so mean…(though cute pic)

  25. 141 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    @nota – Sorry….I just gave him the prize for winning this “contest”
    Yaah,,,yaahh I know he is modest and refuse to accept his victory
    http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/Youre-Awseome/1/Win-Retard_Prize.jpg [Observer]
    ===============

    Sir,

    You can insult me I dont mind but where has your Quranic Education gone while joking about a mentally challenged child.

    • 142 nota December 30, 2009 at 2:30 pm

      Apologies. Just couldn’t resist a bit of sinning…I am but human!

      • 143 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 2:58 pm

        I prefer being a PPP supporter instead of being a ruthless and heartless who for the sake of argument could go to the level as you have gone above. May Allah help and guide us all.

      • 144 nota December 30, 2009 at 4:16 pm

        “I prefer being a PPP supporter instead of being a ruthless and heartless who for the sake of argument could go to the level as you have gone above. May Allah help and guide us all.”

        Honestly I’d rather be “a ruthless and heartless who for the sake of argument could go to the level as [I] have gone above” than be a PPP-Z supporter (Of course the mere thought of ‘Z’ gets me that way). But then I am me and you is you. 😉

      • 145 nota December 30, 2009 at 4:29 pm

        “I prefer being a PPP supporter instead of being a ruthless and heartless who for the sake of argument could go to the level as you have gone above. May Allah help and guide us all.”

        Honestly I’d rather be “a ruthless and heartless who for the sake of argument could go to the level as [I] have gone above” than be a PPP-Z supporter (Of course the mere thought of ‘Z’ gets me that way). But then I am me and you is you.

      • 146 Observer December 30, 2009 at 3:19 pm

        It is me who should aplogize and not Nota. I brought in the picture. I have nothing against the retarded person shown on the picture. If you feel offended, then I apologize.

  26. 147 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    Congratulations! And Bravo! – “[by any Typical PPP Supporter]”
    Finally! At last you admit you are a PPP supporter [though not ‘typical’]. Now that wasn’t so hard, was it? I am still amazed it took you so long. [Nota]
    =================

    What is so wrong if anybody support any political party let alone PPP. Freedom of Political Affiliation is also included in Human Rights [the same Human Rights for which I received a lecture from your goodself and Mr Observer as well].

    • 148 Observer December 30, 2009 at 2:26 pm

      @Aamir

      Nobody is stopping you from supporting PPP or any other party. Just stop making smoke screen all around. Give simple answers to simple questions. I am sorry to say that PPP supporters are normally big users of smoke screen. Normally it NOT useful in fruitful debates. I hope you can change that!

    • 149 nota December 30, 2009 at 2:30 pm

      “What is so wrong if anybody support any political party let alone PPP.”
      Nothing really. Just can’t figure out why it took you so dmn long to admit it (when each of your offering was screaming it)

  27. 150 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    Observer – December 30, 2009 at 3:19 pm – It is me who should aplogize and not Nota. I brought in the picture. I have nothing against the retarded person shown on the picture. If you feel offended, then I apologize.
    ==========

    Sir,

    I am not offended at all, I have seen, bear, and tolerated even worst.

    • 151 Observer December 30, 2009 at 6:28 pm

      @Aamir

      You may be right. That is why you have utterly failed to condemn obvious wrong doings. Until now you have failed to admit that Jatoi said: “Corruption is our right”. I have shown you the actual clip from a debate, but still you insist that he didn’t do anything wrong……:-(

  28. 152 nota December 30, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    BTW: Here is the video as it first appeared — raw and uncut and it did not appear on ANY channel:

    ^^^
    Jatoi makes his appearance at 0:41 sec into it

  29. 153 nota December 30, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    BTW: Here is the video as it first appeared — raw and uncut and it did not appear on ANY channel:

    ^^^
    Jatoi makes his appearance at 0:41 sec into it

  30. 154 nota December 30, 2009 at 6:34 pm

    @Observer
    BTW: Here is the video as it first appeared — raw and uncut and it did not appear on ANY channel:

    ^^^
    Jatoi makes his appearance at 0:41 sec into it

      • 156 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 7:11 pm

        nota – December 29, 2009 at 6:40 pm –

        I think you are looking at things with a ‘fundamentalist’ mindset — if I may take the liberty to say so — and not at the spirit of the religion.

        ================

        What about your above comment???

      • 157 nota December 30, 2009 at 7:11 pm

        Oh, only for your convenience so you don’t have to post tons of material about some news channel and say this was shown on abc channel which is owned by xyz who is corrupt so it can not be true. See the silly reasoning??

      • 158 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 7:16 pm

        Silly Reasoning! nota – December 29, 2009 at 6:40 pm –

        I think you are looking at things with a ‘fundamentalist’ mindset — if I may take the liberty to say so — and not at the spirit of the religion.

    • 159 Observer December 30, 2009 at 7:26 pm

      @nota

      Thanks for the video. There is no doubt left now…at least not for me, but I fear that Aamir will try weasel out of it.

      I just saw Fauzia Wahab on Kashif’s debate prg. She said that simple minded Jatoi had been trapped into making the statement on “corruption is our right”. What the heck would happen this Jatoi idiot was a little smart?

      Aamir is shamelessly having the same attitude. He has failed miserably to make a stand on an obvious issue.

      The same is true about the issue of the same Jatoi visiting the cat house.
      Here is probably a new issue i.e. poor Jatoi maybe forgot his GPS at home and got lost. Remember this is a very “simple minded” man. What the heck….do we need such dumb retards as ministers?

      I am convinced that no party can escape some kind of scandals – no matter how clean the party is. If such thing happens then the issue must be addressed. If needed people must be sacked. PPP including Aamir fail to address the issue and on top of this they try to twist and prolong their own pain (do they feel pain) by making unnecessary and untrue statements 360 degrees around themselves off course i.e. everyone is at fault. What? Is it then okay to make such blunders and still keep the post as a minister?

      Aamir has been quite deceptive on this blog and on TeethMaestros blog too. He has to some success been diverting the issues, but that will not go any longer my friend. You are exposed. Better to stop the past practice and become sober in debate! I’m ready for a new beginning. I reach out with a hand of friendship 🙂

      • 160 Observer December 30, 2009 at 7:28 pm

        @Aamir

        And this is good enough for you?

        ———–

        Aamir Mughal Taliban Commander Imran Khan PTI biggest Supporter & Facilitator of Taliban in Pakistan

      • 161 nota December 30, 2009 at 7:32 pm

        Good luck 🙂
        @Aamer
        You are loosing me…

      • 163 Observer December 30, 2009 at 7:34 pm

        @Aamir

        Did you see the fake flogging video was also used in your material?

      • 164 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 7:35 pm

        Dear Sir,

        My view on Teeth Maestro was very on Jatoi’s video:

        His statement under 164 PPC [that too without any duress] would be acceptable not just some statement on TV show. Statement before a Magistrate is valid. Statement on TV in a cheap show is not good enough. I have seen PTV Shows of Kamran Khan [after 1996 Benazir Government Dismissal, Kamran Khan of Jang Group and Sajjad Mir of Nation/Nawa-e-Waqt had appeared on PTV with running commentary on Corruption Details] and within just two years Kamran Khan was filing stories against his own Running Commentary on PTV. Here goes your TV Statement.

      • 165 nota December 30, 2009 at 7:36 pm

        “Here goes your TV Statement.”

        Wow! Simply brilliant!!!

      • 166 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 7:44 pm

        Observer – December 30, 2009 at 7:34 pm – @Aamir – Did you see the fake flogging video was also used in your material?
        ==============

        My views on such videos [flogging and head chopping videos are included] and such journalists who give too much coverage to the so-called Islamic Militants is as under:

        Our several TV Anchors for instance Kamran Khan of GEO TV who ‘SUCCESSFULLY’ interview

        [Al-Qaeda commander claims responsibility for 9/11 attacks Wednesday, July 23, 2008 Accuses Pakistan of inflicting more damage on his organisation; Mustafa says al-Qaeda men also attacked Danish embassy in Islamabad These comments were made in an interview with Najeeb Ahmed that was broadcast on Monday on Geo TV’s Aaj Kamran Khan Kay Saath programme. This was the first detailed interview in five years of a senior al-Qaeda leader].

        some obscure and concocted Militant Abu Mustafa Al Yazid [What is Al-Qaida ? Aaj Kamran Khan K saath P-1] and relayed it on GEO TV for creating more problem for Pakistan. How the hell they get such interviews when even the high tech Western Agencies could’t trace them???

        Months after right after 911 Hamid Mir filed a front page Super Headline In Daily Dawn that Osama Bin Laden has 36 Nukes [Hamid Mir wasn’t even Dawn Employee not even on contract in Dawn.

        What was the purpose of such stories which always embarrass Pakistan. There are several Militants of Northern Areas who used to address crowded Press Conference and getting coverage in every Private TV Channels in Pakistan. Basically this Rat Race amongst TV Channels has ruined the mental peace of Pakistanis. Nobody is saying to ban TV Channels but did anyone ever questioned the news they present, its veracity, its source, and its background. These TV Channels are keeping alive this “Alleged War On Terror” to make money out of the miseries of People of NWFP, Baluchistan and FATA. Let me quote you a dialogue from a best seller by Late. Harold Robbins

        ‘The truth,’ I said. ‘Can’t any of you tell the truth? Do you always have to manipulate others doing your dirty work for you when the truth is so much simpler?’

        ‘That’s show business,’ Guy said glibly.

        ‘I don’t like it,’ I said.

        ‘You better get used to it if you’re going to stay in it.’ (from The Lonely Lady, 1976)

  31. 167 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    Observer – December 30, 2009 at 7:34 pm – Aamir – Did you see the fake flogging video was also used in your material?
    —————

    Dear Sir,

    I didn’t quote the video on Teeth Maestro

  32. 178 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 7:57 pm

    Observer – December 30, 2009 at 7:48 pm – Isn’t the reply from you to one MQM guy? – http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/notes/khaled-faroqi/jamat-e-islami-and-pti-humilated-again/244589586920
    ======================

    Do I have to ask your permission for posting any link on Facebook.

  33. 204 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 8:34 pm

    Sir,

    I am not offended at all, I have seen, bear, and tolerated even worst. I am not interested in your debate and wish you all well for your Soft Revolution in Pakistan.

  34. 205 Observer December 30, 2009 at 9:07 pm

    @Aamir

    “You are more than welcome in Pakistan, please come and lead us.”

    First of all I think there are more capable people than me to lead the nation. I could only be a little soldier in that connection. AND As I already told you:

    You wouldn’t want me to lead. Heads would roll according to law!

    • 206 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 9:15 pm

      Who am I to stop you and you are more than welcome back to Pakistan to lead us but for this you would have to be bold and declare who you are. Had you been in any Intelligence Agency of Pakistan for 11 years then I would have asked you about the so-called Soft Revolution.

      • 207 Observer December 30, 2009 at 9:20 pm

        @Aamir

        My opinion is only a layman opinion. I am not a politician, armyman or in any investigative body. My profession is different from the above mentioned. On contrary you have a past in the IB.

        You enlighten me, please.

  35. 208 Aamir Mughal December 30, 2009 at 9:27 pm

    Observer – December 30, 2009 at 9:20 pm – @Aamir – My opinion is only a layman opinion. I am not a politician, armyman or in any investigative body. My profession is different from the above mentioned. On contrary you have a past in the IB. – You enlighten me, please.
    ================

    Sir,

    How can I enlighten you in view of your comment: Observer December 30, 2009 at 12:58 pm @nota

    Sorry….I just gave him the prize for winning this “contest” –
    Yaah,,,yaahh I know he is modest and refuse to accept his victory


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